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  #21  
Old 11-13-2015, 06:39 AM
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I'd take a new diploma nurse over a new BSN any day. Heck, even an experienced one over anyone.
::patiently:: Experienced is better in any job. However, they're called "entry-level" positions for a reason. Responsible management doesn't just look at today when considering hiring someone new; a good manager should look at staff potential for the next six to twelve months at a minimum. I have a suspicion that if you actually had those two new grads applying and looked at that, you might reconsider that reflex response.

As for the crack about being a "deadly" non-BSN, again, apples and oranges. Aiken's large-scale studies are very careful to control for the confounding factors of age, experience, and time in the job at the place under study. The assumption that she says a new BSN is "better" than any (read: experienced) other nurse is Fox-worthy, in that it misrepresents both the research and the researcher for the sake of outrage provoked by sound-bite-ness. Our profession deserves better, more thoughtful analysis and response to evidence than that.
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  #22  
Old 11-13-2015, 07:53 AM
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I'd take a new diploma nurse over a new BSN any day. Heck, even an experienced one over anyone.
Well, I'm an old diploma nurse, going on 31 years. I stopped practicing @ bedside in 2012 d/t cancer, but I occasionally write articles for a gated community for oncology professionals. That means no wannabes/pretenders who think they know better, and no students. It's so great to be able to post something and not have people telling you how awful you are, or people declaring the "Godwin's Law" of nursing boards: "I hope you never take care of anyone in my family!"
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  #23  
Old 11-13-2015, 10:12 AM
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Well, I'm an old diploma nurse, going on 31 years. I stopped practicing @ bedside in 2012 d/t cancer, but I occasionally write articles for a gated community for oncology professionals. That means no wannabes/pretenders who think they know better, and no students. It's so great to be able to post something and not have people telling you how awful you are, or people declaring the "Godwin's Law" of nursing boards: "I hope you never take care of anyone in my family!"
Wait... you mean .... you aren't interested in having lay people in the know share the real story about why the AMA suppresses research into herbal remedies proven to cure cancer? I am crushed, just crushed. I mean, we all know how well it worked for Steve McQueen, right? Oh. Wait. ...
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:19 AM
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This debate is why I struggle with my next step. After prereqs, I can either spend a year at CC getting an associate's degree to move up to RN, or I can spend the same year much more intensely and come out with a BSN (through ASU's second-bachelor's ABSN program). It seems no matter where I see my path going in nursing, the second is the wiser option. It's just SO expensive.
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:24 AM
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This debate is why I struggle with my next step. After prereqs, I can either spend a year at CC getting an associate's degree to move up to RN, or I can spend the same year much more intensely and come out with a BSN (through ASU's second-bachelor's ABSN program). It seems no matter where I see my path going in nursing, the second is the wiser option. It's just SO expensive.
How expensive is not doing it? Loss of income over work life expectancy isn't trivial, esp when you figure in lost chances for advancement (which I have no doubt you would have every reason to expect).
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  #26  
Old 11-13-2015, 12:40 PM
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Associate's is typically a 2 year program and Bachelor's takes 4 years.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Bachelor's program provide more courses on leadership and such, and allows you to be eligible for a management position some time in the future. Obviously, they're both still taking the same NCLEX-RN.

(Now, this makes me wonder if you can still have a management position with an ADN degree?)
My hospital is requiring an MSN for management. Even my MBA wasn't good enough.
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  #27  
Old 11-13-2015, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GrnTea View Post
::patiently:: Experienced is better in any job. However, they're called "entry-level" positions for a reason. Responsible management doesn't just look at today when considering hiring someone new; a good manager should look at staff potential for the next six to twelve months at a minimum. I have a suspicion that if you actually had those two new grads applying and looked at that, you might reconsider that reflex response.

As for the crack about being a "deadly" non-BSN, again, apples and oranges. Aiken's large-scale studies are very careful to control for the confounding factors of age, experience, and time in the job at the place under study. The assumption that she says a new BSN is "better" than any (read: experienced) other nurse is Fox-worthy, in that it misrepresents both the research and the researcher for the sake of outrage provoked by sound-bite-ness. Our profession deserves better, more thoughtful analysis and response to evidence than that.
I thought the whole point of Aiken's study was that after things like experience were factored out, the BSN nurses outperformed non-BSNs, that patient outcomes were better, etc.

I made that comment having had the experience of being brand new with a brand new BSN; having had several years experience working with nurses who had BSNs with the same level experience. Perhaps I was just oblivious or totally clueless, but not once in the years I worked did I ever see someone with the much vaunted BSN do something that made me sit back and go "Wow! Thank God we had someone with a BSN to catch that!" Or "Thank God we had someone with a BSN to critically analyze those labs before giving that chemo; we needed that BSN to talk to the oncologist in a professional, collegial manner, because we diploma nurses/ADNs don't have that ability." Etc., etc., etc.

Like I said, perhaps I was clueless, but I saw nothing...NOTHING in the years I was working that made me think "Aha! That's why you need a BSN to be a bedside nurse." My patients and family didn't care about it. I take that back...for many years, I would have patients (and physicians) ask me where I went to nursing school. That mattered to them. I also was asked over the years about my certifications. Patients and families were always pleased/impressed to have a nurse who was certified in psych, then peds., then hospice, then med-surg., then oncology.

If that sounds defensive, it is. I'm offended not only for myself, but for all of the non-BSNs who were my mentors and co-workers. They helped me be able to deepen my learning of multiple specialties.

And thank you so much for comparing what I said to Fox News. Nice backhanded way of calling me a hyperbolic moron. I know we're pretty much allowed to say whatever we want here, but I would have thought that personal insults were a rubicon that wouldn't be crossed...not even here.
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  #28  
Old 11-13-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OCNRN63 View Post
I thought the whole point of Aiken's study was that after things like experience were factored out, the BSN nurses outperformed non-BSNs, that patient outcomes were better, etc.

I made that comment having had the experience of being brand new with a brand new BSN; having had several years experience working with nurses who had BSNs with the same level experience. Perhaps I was just oblivious or totally clueless, but not once in the years I worked did I ever see someone with the much vaunted BSN do something that made me sit back and go "Wow! Thank God we had someone with a BSN to catch that!" Or "Thank God we had someone with a BSN to critically analyze those labs before giving that chemo; we needed that BSN to talk to the oncologist in a professional, collegial manner, because we diploma nurses/ADNs don't have that ability." Etc., etc., etc.
That was, precisely, the point of her study results. In aggregate, looking at patient outcomes in many facilities and settings, involving something like tens of thousands of nurses in those many settings, the outcomes were better when there was a higher percentage of BSN nurses involved, controlled for age, experience, and time at the given facility. When you're looking at such a large batch of data, an individual data point doesn't mean much. This is the problem with trying to apply evidence to individual situations. Overall, it's clear that a better-educated workforce is better. This says nothing about the individuals involved or the kind of interactions you describe, but says a great deal about the overall direction of healthcare. That's the point of her study. It is not to point at any two or six or twenty staffers and say, "See? I told you so."

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCNRN63 View Post
Like I said, perhaps I was clueless, but I saw nothing...NOTHING in the years I was working that made me think "Aha! That's why you need a BSN to be a bedside nurse." My patients and family didn't care about it. I take that back...for many years, I would have patients (and physicians) ask me where I went to nursing school. That mattered to them. I also was asked over the years about my certifications. Patients and families were always pleased/impressed to have a nurse who was certified in psych, then peds., then hospice, then med-surg., then oncology.

If that sounds defensive, it is. I'm offended not only for myself, but for all of the non-BSNs who were my mentors and co-workers. They helped me be able to deepen my learning of multiple specialties.

And thank you so much for comparing what I said to Fox News. Nice backhanded way of calling me a hyperbolic moron. I know we're pretty much allowed to say whatever we want here, but I would have thought that personal insults were a rubicon that wouldn't be crossed...not even here.
I don't mean any of this personally. It's like the data from the study: I am tired of hearing that same old argument, reducing an excellent study with good information and significant implications for the future of our profession to a sound bite or a set of anecdotes. We all know good, bad, and mediocre nurses of every educational level. But that's not the point. The reduction, the limited perspective, the appeal to personal emotions, that's what Fox is famous for in many arenas. It's not the person that makes the argument, it's the argument itself, and its pervasiveness doesn't make it more accurate. I still think we can do better.

I am very sorry to have offended you. (Note I am not saying "if.") I am very aware, often belatedly, at my regrettable tendency to bluntness. Believe me, though, if I want to insult people, I won't do it sideways. Please forgive me.
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Last edited by GrnTea; 11-13-2015 at 01:26 PM. Reason: typos
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  #29  
Old 11-13-2015, 05:09 PM
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No worries. Around here we are mature enough to agree to disagree and enjoy all views. Unless you miss me off ;)
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