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  #11  
Old 10-25-2015, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cracklingkraken View Post
(Now, this makes me wonder if you can still have a management position with an ADN degree?)

Yes you can have a management position without your BSN but it may be more difficult depending on the facility.
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2015, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cracklingkraken View Post
Associate's is typically a 2 year program and Bachelor's takes 4 years.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Bachelor's program provide more courses on leadership and such, and allows you to be eligible for a management position some time in the future. Obviously, they're both still taking the same NCLEX-RN.

(Now, this makes me wonder if you can still have a management position with an ADN degree?)
Personally, I am really tired of that meme that the only difference between an associate's degree at a junior college and a bachelor's degree at a college or university is "a couple of courses on leadership," said scornfully.
If that were the only thing, there would be no advantage at all, as of course the vast number if working nurses are not in "leadership" positions, right? Oh, wait, RNs are always in positions of leadership, as they work c LPNs, CNAs, and others to delegate and evaluate. Some directed education in how that works makes you better-prepared to get more out of "life experience," especially if you are new and don't have much yet.
I think that we all recognize that broader education, higher-level classes, and wider access to resources make for a better foundation for any profession. Of course we all have the opportunity to keep on learning as adults-geez, I can't begin to think about how much non-required CE I've sought out in my life. And many of the nurses we see never do one whit more than the minimum.
Research has shown, amply, that new grads from all kinds of programs start out differently, with the old diploma program grads being better at time management, patient handling and psychomotor skills earliest. And in a year, the BSN grads pull ahead as everybody catches up on the psychomotor and time management skills. Outcomes are better in hospitals where there are more BSNs, even after you correct for years of experience, length of employment, patient acuity, and age.
All else given as equal, would you rather have your kid's developing brain taught by an AD teacher? Your house designed by somebody with an associate degree? Your taxes done? Your counseling? Your local chemical plant run?
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  #13  
Old 10-26-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by GrnTea View Post
Personally, I am really tired of that meme that the only difference between an associate's degree at a junior college and a bachelor's degree at a college or university is "a couple of courses on leadership," said scornfully.
If that were the only thing, there would be no advantage at all, as of course the vast number if working nurses are not in "leadership" positions, right? Oh, wait, RNs are always in positions of leadership, as they work c LPNs, CNAs, and others to delegate and evaluate. Some directed education in how that works makes you better-prepared to get more out of "life experience," especially if you are new and don't have much yet.
I think that we all recognize that broader education, higher-level classes, and wider access to resources make for a better foundation for any profession. Of course we all have the opportunity to keep on learning as adults-geez, I can't begin to think about how much non-required CE I've sought out in my life. And many of the nurses we see never do one whit more than the minimum.
Research has shown, amply, that new grads from all kinds of programs start out differently, with the old diploma program grads being better at time management, patient handling and psychomotor skills earliest. And in a year, the BSN grads pull ahead as everybody catches up on the psychomotor and time management skills. Outcomes are better in hospitals where there are more BSNs, even after you correct for years of experience, length of employment, patient acuity, and age.
All else given as equal, would you rather have your kid's developing brain taught by an AD teacher? Your house designed by somebody with an associate degree? Your taxes done? Your counseling? Your local chemical plant run?
My apologies, GrnTea. I did not mean to offend. After looking further into the BSN programs, there are higher level nursing courses that cover various issues that are not in the ADN programs. I spoke out of ignorance.

As to the level of education, I'm all for education. If I could have, I would have immediately gone the BSN route, but the ADN was more convenient for me financially.

But I don't think that education is equated with competence. For example, my father's highest level of education is high school. Financially, his family was unable to afford sending him to receive higher education, and it has limited him greatly in advancing in his company. He is one of the smartest, well-rounded men I know and has learned everything by reading and learning from others. He has statistically improved the efficiency of his department, compared to the managers who have Master's and are overseeing their workers, yet these workers approach my father because he is able to provide them with direction and solutions to their problems. Their manager typically leaves them to fend for themselves.

He's been at his company of over 20 years and JUST got promoted within the past few years, so his hard work is finally paying off. The reason that he did not leave was because of the benefits offered through his company for his children through scholarships and such. And because he was ensuring a good future for us, he still has not been able to go back to receive any college education. At this point, there's no reason to because he plans on retiring soon.

I hate that he was limited because of his "lack of education", even though he was more than competent and had years of experience over the incoming managers.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:18 AM
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This is a good example of what bites my butt. My father was the same way, although he never held onto a job for that long. If he felt himself being demeaned or dehumanized by someone with a piece of paper, he'd quit and find a better job somewhere else. We may have had plenty of lean times, but it gave me a good basic training in how to survive them.

I disagree that having degrees should be the main criteria in advancement at work. I have seen too many people who, despite how far they've gone, never learned to think their way out of a wet paper bag and simply regurgitate what they've stored away in their heads to pass their exams. Trying to explain things to such people or attempting to get them to see what to you is an obvious solution to a problem goes beyond being frustrating.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cracklingkraken View Post
My apologies, GrnTea. I did not mean to offend. After looking further into the BSN programs, there are higher level nursing courses that cover various issues that are not in the ADN programs. I spoke out of ignorance.

As to the level of education, I'm all for education. If I could have, I would have immediately gone the BSN route, but the ADN was more convenient for me financially.

But I don't think that education is equated with competence. For example, my father's highest level of education is high school. Financially, his family was unable to afford sending him to receive higher education, and it has limited him greatly in advancing in his company. He is one of the smartest, well-rounded men I know and has learned everything by reading and learning from others. He has statistically improved the efficiency of his department, compared to the managers who have Master's and are overseeing their workers, yet these workers approach my father because he is able to provide them with direction and solutions to their problems. Their manager typically leaves them to fend for themselves.

He's been at his company of over 20 years and JUST got promoted within the past few years, so his hard work is finally paying off. The reason that he did not leave was because of the benefits offered through his company for his children through scholarships and such. And because he was ensuring a good future for us, he still has not been able to go back to receive any college education. At this point, there's no reason to because he plans on retiring soon.

I hate that he was limited because of his "lack of education", even though he was more than competent and had years of experience over the incoming managers.

I hear you, and no offense taken. As to your dad, as I said, experience is terrific and we're all better when we have it than before we had it. Continuing ed, in whatever form but especially over many years, is always helpful for those who get it and those they work with.

But anecdote is not the singular of data: the classic Aiken BSN study controlled for years of experience and years employed at this institution (and staffing levels). In that case, very clearly, in nursing competence as indicated by incidence of complications, BSN is an indicator of increased competence. Don't take my word for it...look it up.

Educational levels of hospital nurses and surgical patient mortality.
Aiken LH, Clarke SP, Cheung RB, Sloane DM, Silber JH.
Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research, School of Nursing,
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104-6096, USA.
laiken@nursing.upenn.edu
JAMA. 2003 Sep 24;290(12):1617-23.
(follow up studies confirm this initial classic bit of research)
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:32 PM
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We get a whopping 12 cents per hour "raise" when we get our BSN. It's like a joke. But we're a magnet hospital, so we have to get the BSN whether we want to or not. Some of the ADNs are exempt, depending on their hiring date, but they can no longer go in to management unless they get the BSN. There is actually a push to keep people from being charge nurse unless they have the BSN. Kind of crazy to me. Most of our really good charge nurses (at least the ones I've worked with) only have their ADN.

I'm getting the BSN simply because I want to go on to NP.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:43 PM
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We get a whopping 12 cents per hour "raise" when we get our BSN. It's like a joke. But we're a magnet hospital, so we have to get the BSN whether we want to or not. Some of the ADNs are exempt, depending on their hiring date, but they can no longer go in to management unless they get the BSN. There is actually a push to keep people from being charge nurse unless they have the BSN. Kind of crazy to me. Most of our really good charge nurses (at least the ones I've worked with) only have their ADN.

I'm getting the BSN simply because I want to go on to NP.
You and everybody else. It's obvious that many of you may end up being better-educated staff nurses than you expected ... and good for your patients in the long run, and for when you have enough experience to take charge.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:04 PM
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Well, it's a good thing the PA BON hasn't found the trail of corpses left in my wake while I was working. After all, I'm one of those deadly diploma nurses, according to St. Aiken.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:21 PM
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Well, it's a good thing the PA BON hasn't found the trail of corpses left in my wake while I was working. After all, I'm one of those deadly diploma nurses, according to St. Aiken.
I'd take a new diploma nurse over a new BSN any day. Heck, even an experienced one over anyone.
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cracklingkraken View Post
Associate's is typically a 2 year program and Bachelor's takes 4 years.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Bachelor's program provide more courses on leadership and such, and allows you to be eligible for a management position some time in the future. Obviously, they're both still taking the same NCLEX-RN.

(Now, this makes me wonder if you can still have a management position with an ADN degree?)
that is essentially correct, but in reality an ADN takes 3 years including pre-requisites, not two. That two years also includes summer sessions in many programs. It took me 7 semesters (counting summers as a semester) to do my ADN, 2.5 calendar years. I already had a non-nursing bachelors degree. It would have taken longer otherwise.
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